Training prioritization

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
I'm looking for some advice on which training I should seek out first, as my budget is pretty tight, and I'm probably only going to be able to afford one proper class in 2020.
I kinda suck at pistol, am mediocre with a rifle, and pretty respectable with my shotgun, which was what I grew up shooting, so I guess that isn't terribly surprising.
I'm going to be seeking out remedial pistol instruction with a well regarded local instructor, but his thing is bullseye pistol, and that can only take you so far.
My budget is probably going to limit me to stuff here in FL, since the cost of a class+ammo will already be a painful percentage of my yearly income, even without considering travel expenses.

So, with all that in mind, what classes/instructors do y'all think I should be looking out for?
 

AlphaJuliet

Amateur
Varg Freeborn is in your area; he does a lot of foundational handgun and carbine work as well as infusing his courses with his knowledge of criminal mindset and TTPs. His courses are also pretty affordable - his Concealment Pistol class in FL is $125 as is his foundational carbine class.

Past that, don't knock bullseye shooting instruction. Cleaning up your grip, trigger press, and sight alignment is critical to building the automaticity you need to shoot faster with accuracy in a gunfight.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Varg Freeborn is in your area; he does a lot of foundational handgun and carbine work as well as infusing his courses with his knowledge of criminal mindset and TTPs. His courses are also pretty affordable - his Concealment Pistol class in FL is $125 as is his foundational carbine class.

Past that, don't knock bullseye shooting instruction. Cleaning up your grip, trigger press, and sight alignment is critical to building the automaticity you need to shoot faster with accuracy in a gunfight.
Cool, I'll look into Varg's courses. I'm about 3/4 of the way through his book, and I'm finding it to be really good.
Not knocking bullseye at all, I appreciate the value as a tool for developing the fundamentals, and as a test of precision, I was just explaining why I am looking for other options for "practical" training.
 

jBravo3

Regular Member
All great points above, and as an alumnus, I second the V. Freeborn recommendation. Glad you're reading his book. It's a great resource and will help you plot your route relative to training. Defining your objectives - where you want to be and why you want to be there - is important.

If you can only take one class in a year, and you haven't had it yet, take a Shivworks/Craig Douglas ECQC class and springboard from there. That will give you a good frame of reference and plenty to think about.

Beyond that, without knowing you or any of your background, I'll just assume the main objective is to be a better, more prepared armed citizen. If you have a good pistol, know how your pistol sights and trigger work, can fix malfunctions, and you have a quality holster, etc, I'd ask where your medical skill level is at. Also, think about physical fitness, get in a BJJ gym, boxing, etc - don't be too focused on the gun stuff, especially if money is tight under current circumstances.

I think interpersonal communication, awareness skills, medical skills, fitness level, general preparedness and combatives should be the foundation everything else is built on or the wheels might come off before you even need to think about gun stuff. Rifle and shotgun classes are great but I'd save them for later - per info you provided.

Hope this isn't sounding preachy and I'm sorry if it does. I just dunno where you're coming from and I'm giving general advice/opinion - it's not meant to be one size fits all. If it is preachy, just FYI, I do try to practice what it is I'm preaching, and I know I've got plenty of practicing left to do.

So, anyway...if just one class all year, and you haven't had it yet; ECQC. If that's too spendy right now, keep reading, dry fire, work on those other foundational skills, and don't overlook/underestimate local trainers (but do your due diligence). Good for you and anyone else who continues to hone their edge.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
All great points above, and as an alumnus, I second the V. Freeborn recommendation. Glad you're reading his book. It's a great resource and will help you plot your route relative to training. Defining your objectives - where you want to be and why you want to be there - is important.

If you can only take one class in a year, and you haven't had it yet, take a Shivworks/Craig Douglas ECQC class and springboard from there. That will give you a good frame of reference and plenty to think about.

Beyond that, without knowing you or any of your background, I'll just assume the main objective is to be a better, more prepared armed citizen. If you have a good pistol, know how your pistol sights and trigger work, can fix malfunctions, and you have a quality holster, etc, I'd ask where your medical skill level is at. Also, think about physical fitness, get in a BJJ gym, boxing, etc - don't be too focused on the gun stuff, especially if money is tight under current circumstances.

I think interpersonal communication, awareness skills, medical skills, fitness level, general preparedness and combatives should be the foundation everything else is built on or the wheels might come off before you even need to think about gun stuff. Rifle and shotgun classes are great but I'd save them for later - per info you provided.

Hope this isn't sounding preachy and I'm sorry if it does. I just dunno where you're coming from and I'm giving general advice/opinion - it's not meant to be one size fits all. If it is preachy, just FYI, I do try to practice what it is I'm preaching, and I know I've got plenty of practicing left to do.

So, anyway...if just one class all year, and you haven't had it yet; ECQC. If that's too spendy right now, keep reading, dry fire, work on those other foundational skills, and don't overlook/underestimate local trainers (but do your due diligence). Good for you and anyone else who continues to hone their edge.
I will look into ECQC, thanks for the recommendation.
You assume correctly, just an average Joe who is tired of being average.
I would say I have something like 3/4 of the gear necessary. I'm still ironing out some of the details, but I have a Glock 22 that I picked up cheap, and have slowly been improving, (ghost disconnector & spring kit, a set of secondhand Dawsons, a streamlight TLR-1 HL, and eventually I'll be getting it milled for a holosun 507c) and I'm gonna get a good holster for it soon, I just needed to get the light first since it determined my holster options.
I'm not totally inept medically, I am too accident prone to get away with that, but I am planning to take some stop the bleed training after the holidays, figured with my luck I will end up needing it at some point.
As far as combatives, I'm pretty limited in what I can do to work on it. I have had several serious shoulder injuries, and I have two bad knees, so I am a bit worried about trying something like bjj. I have done some traditional pugilism and some wrestling, but it has been a while since I have been able to practice. Once the doctor clears me to return to full activity I will be starting back up with the pugilism. My current physical state is part of the reason I recently added a can of OC to my EDC, so at least I have, as Chuck Haggard would say "Something between harsh words and a gun"
And while your post might be preachy, you are at least preaching to the choir. ;)
 
I’m here in FL too. If I remember right your down in Central Florida. Check out Bill Quirk of Defensive Training Group in Gainesville. Also Jared Reston of Reston Group Critical Solutions up in Jacksonville/St. Augustine. Bob Capps of Signal-0 Productions is also good and very affordable. Finally if competition is more your thing, there’s Frank Garcia at Universal Shooting Academy in Frostproof.

If you ever make your way to Pensacola, I teach Pistol and Carbine Fundamentals (Deadly Threat Defense LLC) classes on the cheap. And like said above, don’t dismiss Bullseye type training. Being able to hit whatever static target your aiming at while standing still with a high degree of accuracy and precision, time limited or not, is a foundational skill. All the other ninja stuff don’t matter till you can do that IMHO.


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Nowski

Member
I’m in a similar spot and I got a buddy fairly new to this stuff. We both decided to take the handgun fundamentals class with Bill Quirk. At 205.00 for tuition and 500 rounds it fits the budget.


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Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
I’m here in FL too. If I remember right your down in Central Florida. Check out Bill Quirk of Defensive Training Group in Gainesville. Also Jared Reston of Reston Group Critical Solutions up in Jacksonville/St. Augustine. Bob Capps of Signal-0 Productions is also good and very affordable. Finally if competition is more your thing, there’s Frank Garcia at Universal Shooting Academy in Frostproof.

If you ever make your way to Pensacola, I teach Pistol and Carbine Fundamentals (Deadly Threat Defense LLC) classes on the cheap. And like said above, don’t dismiss Bullseye type training. Being able to hit whatever static target your aiming at while standing still with a high degree of accuracy and precision, time limited or not, is a foundational skill. All the other ninja stuff don’t matter till you can do that IMHO.


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Yep, I'm in Lakeland. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look into all those guys.
P.S. I am really liking those Dawsons, they are a massive improvement over the factory adjustables on my Glock. I can actually see how abysmal my flinch is.
 
I’m here in FL too. If I remember right your down in Central Florida. Check out Bill Quirk of Defensive Training Group in Gainesville. Also Jared Reston of Reston Group Critical Solutions up in Jacksonville/St. Augustine. Bob Capps of Signal-0 Productions is also good and very affordable. Finally if competition is more your thing, there’s Frank Garcia at Universal Shooting Academy in Frostproof.

If you ever make your way to Pensacola, I teach Pistol and Carbine Fundamentals (Deadly Threat Defense LLC) classes on the cheap. And like said above, don’t dismiss Bullseye type training. Being able to hit whatever static target your aiming at while standing still with a high degree of accuracy and precision, time limited or not, is a foundational skill. All the other ninja stuff don’t matter till you can do that IMHO.


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Yep, I'm in Lakeland. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look into all those guys.
P.S. I am really liking those Dawsons, they are a massive improvement over the factory adjustables on my Glock. I can actually see how abysmal my flinch is.

Yea, they are the only way to go on an irons gun. Wait till you try a dot though!


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Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Yea, they are the only way to go on an irons gun. Wait till you try a dot though!


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I had that realization when I went to a dot on my carbine. It was so easy, it felt like cheating. My Glock will be getting a dot at some point too, probably a holosun 507c. I love the reticle on that thing.
 
I had that realization when I went to a dot on my carbine. It was so easy, it felt like cheating. My Glock will be getting a dot at some point too, probably a holosun 507c. I love the reticle on that thing.

I really like the 507c, I have one on a Staccato P Duo and I'd get another with no qualms. Initially I had reservations about it because it's Chinese and so much less expensive than the RMR I have (Trijicon is 1/2 hour from me and I usually like to buy American when I can) and I figured that the lesser price must come with a compromise in quality. Then I heard Steve Fisher say good things about the 507c on modcasts and at a class. Apparently he sees lots fewer electronics failures in them than with other red dots.

This is completely subjective and the next guy will probably think the complete opposite, but I just find the EOTech-like reticle in the Holosun a lot easier to pick up than a single dot. I really do find tremendous value in red dots on pistols in general, for me they are just so much easier to see than irons, less fatiguing too. There was a learning curve for me, but now I just find the dot a lot easier to use.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Aside from firearms have you @Steven Cali thought about medical training? Or is that in your deck already?
I have had some very basic first aid training, most it was from growing up with 8 younger siblings, playing in real life instead of virtual space, and the tree climbing, bike riding, sword fighting, "parachuting" off of bunk beds, stinging nettles, and the bruises, stitches, broken bones, bites, etc that entailed. Not exactly formal training, but I am certainly more comfortable with basic first aid, both on myself and on someone else, than the average American, not that that is a particularly high bar.
I'm planning to take some stop the bleed training after the holidays, and probably some other formal medical training at some point, just not sure what yet.
 

Clay1

Regular Member
First thoughts about a weapons skill set priorities is that most of use don't carry a long gun while grocery shopping. As a citizen going about your business in the world, a handgun skill set is my top priority since it is what I will have available and at hand (if you actually carry one and not just talk about it).

I don't read much about this on this forum. This is just my opinion from my experiences. Shoot some gun gamer games, seriously. It's cheap to shoot your local IDPA / USPSA matches. Shooting skill is shooting skill and I much prefer a practical pistol experience over a bullseye experience.

I won one of those $500 handgun classes at a state shoot. Not because I shoot so well, but I just happen to win a drawing. I go to the class and after the class, I'm thinking that I learned more shooting gamer games in a short few months than I did at this class. As a guy who has taken more training courses than the average Joe, many people choose a course as a shortcut for a lack in their training regiment. The gun games lack the whole mental preparedness, mindset and tactics but it's a good first step in being more proficient with your weapon of choice.

I did not say that is all the training that you need. I did not say, that all training courses are worthless, a Craig Douglass class is on my short list and I will train with some other local trainers this year myself. I will throw in to consider a low light class since you mentioned the flashlight on the gun. For a guy on a tight budget, shooting some local matches might be a good way to dip your toes into a better skill set.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
First thoughts about a weapons skill set priorities is that most of use don't carry a long gun while grocery shopping. As a citizen going about your business in the world, a handgun skill set is my top priority since it is what I will have available and at hand (if you actually carry one and not just talk about it).

I don't read much about this on this forum. This is just my opinion from my experiences. Shoot some gun gamer games, seriously. It's cheap to shoot your local IDPA / USPSA matches. Shooting skill is shooting skill and I much prefer a practical pistol experience over a bullseye experience.

I won one of those $500 handgun classes at a state shoot. Not because I shoot so well, but I just happen to win a drawing. I go to the class and after the class, I'm thinking that I learned more shooting gamer games in a short few months than I did at this class. As a guy who has taken more training courses than the average Joe, many people choose a course as a shortcut for a lack in their training regiment. The gun games lack the whole mental preparedness, mindset and tactics but it's a good first step in being more proficient with your weapon of choice.

I did not say that is all the training that you need. I did not say, that all training courses are worthless, a Craig Douglass class is on my short list and I will train with some other local trainers this year myself. I will throw in to consider a low light class since you mentioned the flashlight on the gun. For a guy on a tight budget, shooting some local matches might be a good way to dip your toes into a better skill set.
Totally on board with prioritizing pistol over long guns, especially since it is the more difficult, and more perishable, discipline.
Currently I'm carrying my S&W model 15, since it is the gun I shoot best (6" groups at 10 yards, rather than being barely able to hold them on a silhouette, like my Glock) and shot accountability is more important to me than capacity. Hopefully some training can get my performance with the Glock on par, and I can start carrying that.
I'm planning to shoot some IDPA matches in the coming year, and perhaps some other local stuff, if my budget and schedule allows. I'm currently doing about 10 minutes of dry fire a day, although I'm inclined to say that I don't actually have the level of proficiency necessary to fully capitalize on it yet. Low light is on my to do list, but I might not get to take a dedicated low light class this year, considering how far I have to go before I'm really to add low light to the mix.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
Well, I went to the range after work today, and I think I was wrong about not reaping benefits from dry fire. My flinch was much more manageable today, although it did take a great deal of concentration to keep it in check. I shot my best group ever from my Glock, and most of the rest weren't too far behind. I think it's time to start carrying this sucker.KIMG0717~2.JPG
 
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